tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post5338766533601937587..comments2024-03-22T21:58:18.933+00:00Comments on ShukerNature: DRAGONS OF BABYLON, AND DINOSAURS IN THE BIBLEAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15628598508836601012noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-89960629772521938672018-11-30T16:49:36.900+00:002018-11-30T16:49:36.900+00:00Thanks for all the info. The most famous examples ...Thanks for all the info. The most famous examples of these depictions are a pair of such beasts on the ancient Egyptian Narmer Palette, which I was fortunate enough to see when visiting the Cairo Museum back in 2006. Here's my ShukerNature blog article dealing with it and similar artefacts portraying such beasts: https://karlshuker.blogspot.com/2010/12/narmer-palette-palaver.html<br />Dr Karl Shukerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06222845702628862829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-6127388768349067352018-11-30T15:33:05.205+00:002018-11-30T15:33:05.205+00:00I found more info, in part by dropping 'stela&...I found more info, in part by dropping 'stela' from the search terms; the Egyptian carving I remember wasn't a stela, it was a palette; wider at the top than the bottom. Now I see it wasn't unique amongst Egyptian palettes in displaying a very long-necked animal. <br /><br />These palettes I've found now don't show very sauropod-like creatures in that the tails are much smaller than their necks. I couldn't guess whether this is Egyptian priority-scaling, whether the Egyptians were working on poorly-transmitted information, or whether this art has any connection to sauropods at all. There is much more sauropod-like art in the Americas, the resemblances are astonishingly good! Some in China well resemble other kinds of dinosaur. Oh, and there's a long tail on the Mesopotamian seal of Uruk; the creature seems more sauropodal than the one on the Ishtar gate.<br /><br />I got all this from the many pictures at the following link. I'm not so keen on the text of the page; the author stretches the sauropod resemblance of many pieces more than I'm comfortable with. All the same, some of the arguments he presents surprised me very much!<br /><br />https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/evidence/historical/ancient/dinosaur/<br /><br />Between these and other things, I get the impression ancient Egypt was something of an outlier in the mythological spectrum of the ancient world. Perhaps they put their own interpretations on common myths. On the other hand, it seems the further from Egypt a carving is found, the more dinosaur-like it may be. Mesopotanian representations are not so good as Chinese. Perhaps the distortions may be due to powerful organized religions early in history, but... that's too difficult for me to work out. I think it's interesting that they found remains of organized worship in a 3,000 year old city in China, and the Olmec civilization of central America is also from that time period, so I wonder what was going on at that point in history? I don't believe in archetypes. <br /><br />Oh... the presence of these better representations of dinaosaurs from cultures perhaps descended from these later civilizations suggests that dinosaur skeletons were systematically researched in the ancient world, and knowledge improved over time. One has to assume communication between scholars, which must have happened at times, or how could a library like Alexandria's arise? I'm getting ever further from cryptozoology, but I suspect another thing investigated was how to manipulate relatively primitive people into gathering in cities and becoming "great" nations, according to their opinions of greatness. Perhaps some scholars set out to do this, likely founding priesthoods, and some of the dinosaur research came along for the ride. <br /><br />It's all speculation, but I do think unscrupulous scholars would have researched how to manipulate people on such grand scales as these. Almost all. One Egyptian legend about the origin of the great pyramids essentially says the first Pharaoh to build one was talked into it one day, by a shepherd of all people, and a stranger at that! They met when Pharaoh went down to the Nile to bathe. What would a shepherd know about either stonemasonry or the immense organization needed to build such a thing, or getting the people to go along with it, or most of all, convincing the leader of a nation that it was a good idea?<br /><br />That's far more speculation than I set out to write, but I had fun with it. :)Ethan Gardenerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04477704222423568933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-30649210992425348462018-11-08T23:02:48.529+00:002018-11-08T23:02:48.529+00:00I've always thought behemoth to likely be a sa...I've always thought behemoth to likely be a sauropod too, especially considering the comparison of its tail to a cedar. Reading the Bible, the cedar comes across as the most impressive tree to the people of those lands, the go-to metaphor for something tall and strong.<br /><br />Also, I recall a depiction of a sauropod on an Egyptian stela. All the other animals on the stela are real, and like one of the other animals, it is leashed, its leash held by a human. Whatever may be said about scale in Egyptian art, I guess it wasn't one of the larger sauropods! :)<br /><br />I can't find the stela online right now. I'm blaming the late hour and my poor search skills, but I have to admit it could have been a hoax. There is this finding of a sauropod of (I guess) about the right size fossilized in Egypt: https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2018/01/29/Egyptian-sauropod-reveals-ancient-link-between-Africa-Europe/7161517251293/<br /><br />Returning to the Biblical description, here's an easier to read translation with a rather different take on the cedar tail than I'm familiar with. The translation is a very new revision; 2013.<br />https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/job/40/#v18040015-v18040024<br />There are some other translations under the layered book icon on the right. Byington's reminds me of the Walking With Dinosaurs depiction of sauropods: "It holds its tail stiff as a cedar". :)Ethan Gardenerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04477704222423568933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-91391882075243711602017-01-02T11:20:35.582+00:002017-01-02T11:20:35.582+00:00While the Sirrush seems to have been based on some...While the Sirrush seems to have been based on something real, I doubt the same could be said of Behemoth.<br />The Hebrew word BHMH (behemah) is used several times in Genesis to indicate cattle. My copy of Peaked's concordance suggests that Behemoth is symbolic of God's power,, a purely allegorical creation.Martin Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12667331992294612673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-64224013061143770722013-01-05T21:57:09.171+00:002013-01-05T21:57:09.171+00:00Dragons a fantasy made real, by animal planet. One...Dragons a fantasy made real, by animal planet. One of the most interesting videos I've ever seen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-58558095124492417862012-06-21T06:05:14.941+01:002012-06-21T06:05:14.941+01:00Karl, do you think that Raptors might have survive...Karl, do you think that Raptors might have survived?Troodon Roarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06458650924508744077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-79240025225323385272011-07-10T22:04:31.494+01:002011-07-10T22:04:31.494+01:00Dragons, dinosaurs and babylons, oh my! I have got...Dragons, dinosaurs and babylons, oh my! I have got to write a book about this. As for that idea of mokele-mbembe escaping into Europe, it has a lot of evidence backing it up, except for one thing - where are the bodies? <br /><br />I have always thought dragons as living animals a possibility. First of all, some scientists projected the evolution of a primitive lizard relative, called a coelurosaur, into the present. And they came up with a dragon! Second, there are dragon reports from the Far North to China to Europe. Cultures that never met. Separated by vast oceans and millions of miles of land. And yet the indonesian quetzalcoatlid looks just like a south american one! Europe's wyrms look like Chinese dragons. All cultures tell of a sea serpent. So if these legends weren't being handed down the generations as stories, the only option seems to be that all these people actually saw dragons! Third, a group of brilliant scientists in Oxford, men who would not tell a lie in fear they might lose their reputation, said they saw a dragon. Fourth, a man in a plane flying over Tibet reportedly photographed two dragons in the clouds below. All this evidence suggests real dragons. But then, of course, there is a missing puzzle piece: where are the bodies? Surely, an animal that size would leave a skeleton. Mysterious! All the evidence contradicts on itself and traps you in a swirling, chaotic void of hypothesis, mystery, contemplation, red herrings, dead ends and hoaxes. But I can't stop thinking about it!<br /><br />All the best, AnonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-62754527366832845442011-03-26T17:25:08.628+00:002011-03-26T17:25:08.628+00:00Well, that's still interesting. A babylonian v...Well, that's still interesting. A babylonian voyage into the green abyss. Wait a minute- some expeditions, including the Megatransect, into the Congo, have reported that the ground seems to have been affected by farming (see National Geographic, Megatransect Part 1)! How long could those babylonians have stayed?<br /><br />And another thing. If the Babylons went to Africa and brought back dinosaurs- well, it can be hard to keep such a large animal in captivity. If an escape occurred... you've heard of introduced species, right? How long do you think that a Mokele-Mbembe could live in Europe? Do you think that there could be some truth to dragon slaying in the Middle Ages?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-24422612263970515612011-03-23T00:52:02.911+00:002011-03-23T00:52:02.911+00:00In fact, there are ancient Middle Eastern depictio...In fact, there are ancient Middle Eastern depictions of okapi-like beasts and small elephants.Dr Karl Shukerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06222845702628862829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-45083532222525831742011-03-22T20:37:53.515+00:002011-03-22T20:37:53.515+00:00I doubt the Babylonians ever went as far as centra...I doubt the Babylonians ever went as far as central Africa, or they would have animals like forest elephants or monkeys or okapi on the Ishtar Gate too, or somewhere else. My theory is that back then, an actual species of sauropod LIVED in Babylon and the Holy Land! And why stop there? Is it possible that wyverns are based on tyrannosaurs? Could those "fiery serpents" be a pterodactyl with orange and yellow plumage, and the phoenix too? Could dragons be a form of theropod dinosaur that took to the skies? My, I'm really exercising my imagination! I should probably wrap this up before I blow it up! (it being my imagination) <br /><br />Thank you for this fascinating and brilliantly thought article, Carl.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-71788955356927002932011-02-04T18:28:21.010+00:002011-02-04T18:28:21.010+00:00I agree with Tina, too, but with a caveat. I don&#...I agree with Tina, too, but with a caveat. I don't think people are any smarter today than they were thousands of years ago. What could be different, however, is how and why we like to talk about things like dragons. Maybe when ancient people say they saw a fiery flying serpent, they did see one, or maybe it was more important to frame their report in terms of flying serpents than it would be in terms of say meteors or other more common phenomena. The guy who sees a dragon now has something special about them, just like the modern UFO witness.<br /><br />So, if we agree that humans are pretty much the same now as they were back in the day, I wonder if people thousands of years from now will find depictions of monsters that we have made (in movies, TV, books) and wonder whether those monsters were real or whether we were just using our imaginations, something humans can always be counted on to do.Scaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15033642677551133433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-3336471836903426062011-01-24T10:39:50.904+00:002011-01-24T10:39:50.904+00:00I agree with Tina! We do, (wrongly, i feel) assume...I agree with Tina! We do, (wrongly, i feel) assume ancient people that had the same things as we have today only in different ways (running hot and cold water,cisterns even 'automatic doors' true!) were<br />unintelligent oafs walking around grunting making imaginary animals up to suit their 'lack of understanding'about the world around them. If they mention them they were there... perhaps some embellishment -human nature??- but there non the less. There are stories of dragons from across the globe and a fossil record of 'them' surely it is not difficult to believe humans saw these creatures??? I think it is unintelligent of us to assume them wrong!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-61779216556418976862011-01-20T20:36:23.810+00:002011-01-20T20:36:23.810+00:00Might as well be talking about UFO's...
It oc...Might as well be talking about UFO's...<br /><br />It occurs to me that we have no clue what sorts of creatures our ancestors came up against. We find fossils and we assume that what we see is what was. Animals are far more elusive than we think. Previously unknown species are being discovered every day. Couple that with the fact that our ancestors--- as much as we would like to believe that just because they didn't have iPhones they weren't as intelligent--- were very much aware of the world they lived in. If they said they saw a FIERY FLYING SERPENT then they saw a serpent, glowing... and flying.MokeleMbembehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15207709056426360071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-23000149506402389482011-01-20T20:10:03.753+00:002011-01-20T20:10:03.753+00:00Pastor Billy Crone has a great audio and video dis...Pastor Billy Crone has a great audio and video discussions of this topic. You can find the audio at radioliberty.com. You will find the truth there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-52763733794302645002011-01-19T22:19:08.719+00:002011-01-19T22:19:08.719+00:00I'll order the book Karl! Concerning the KJV v...I'll order the book Karl! Concerning the KJV verison of the Bible, there are references in Isaiah 30:6 speaks of the fiery flying serpent. This creature is mention in the same passage along with known animals that inhabited the Middle east at that time, such as the lion and the viper. See the following references:<br /><br /> Isaiah 14:29: "Do not rejoice, all you of Philistia, because the rod that struck you is broken; for out of the serpent's roots will come a viper, and its offspring will be a fiery flying serpent." <br />Isaiah 30:6: "The burden against the beasts of the South. Through a land of trouble and anguish, from which came the lioness and the lion, the viper and the fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches on the backs of young donkeys, and their treasures on the humps of camels, to a people who shall not profit;" <br />References to "fiery serpents" lacking a mention of flight can be found in several places in the Hebrew Bible.<br /><br />Deuteronomy 8:15 "Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;" <br />Numbers 21:6-8 "(6) And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. (7) Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. (8) And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live." <br /><br />One wonders what these fiery serpents were, although the flying fiery serpent in Isaiah 30:6 does remind one of the Ropen of Papua New Guinea which apparently has a bioluminescent glow when airborne. <br /><br />Bill GibbonsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-19334463710971603972011-01-19T21:01:32.445+00:002011-01-19T21:01:32.445+00:00@Laurence - This is the revised, updated edition o...@Laurence - This is the revised, updated edition of In Search of Prehistoric Survivors (1995).Dr Karl Shukerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06222845702628862829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-79952652189590465022011-01-19T12:30:05.632+00:002011-01-19T12:30:05.632+00:00The secret is that this Congo creature is invoked ...The secret is that this Congo creature is invoked in the male initiation trance songs -- it's part of the kundalini (snake) psychic vision quest. Yes it's African in origin but as Michael Talbot's "The Delicate Dependency" classic noted -- Vampire is derived from the ancient root for worm from vamp. So we have the bat-worm spirit blood energy connection in Sumeria from the Elamites -- a Dravidian-African culture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-32129120606768088242011-01-19T07:55:44.596+00:002011-01-19T07:55:44.596+00:00The behemoth certainly sounds like a sauropod, I j...The behemoth certainly sounds like a sauropod, I just wish I was not such an "open minded skeptic". I would like nothing more than to see a living dinosaur.Timothy-Donald-Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00297140670811904034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-84116962540263419342011-01-18T21:56:00.330+00:002011-01-18T21:56:00.330+00:00An interesting little aside - on the side (ahem) o...An interesting little aside - on the side (ahem) of the biggest rune stone in Denmark, is a depiction of an animal looking very much like the sirrush. It is entangled in something - perhaps christianity vanguishing the pagan beliefs, as the inscription of the stone tells of the first christening of the danes. But it still looks like the sirrush!!Lars Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415256626457393784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-41892765296364893282011-01-18T21:15:22.366+00:002011-01-18T21:15:22.366+00:00Is this the long awaited revised and updated new e...Is this the long awaited revised and updated new edition or a second volume?Laurence Crossennoreply@blogger.com