tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post8822556760274748963..comments2024-03-22T21:58:18.933+00:00Comments on ShukerNature: SEEKING GLYCON - BLOND-HAIRED, HUMAN-HEADED, SERPENT-BODIED, AND VERY TALKATIVE!Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15628598508836601012noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-11541512308207743902017-07-14T00:05:42.480+01:002017-07-14T00:05:42.480+01:00As a Polytheist, I find it so disheartening that M...As a Polytheist, I find it so disheartening that Mr. Moore doesn't actually believe in Glycon. I really respect Moore's commentary on magic though so I guess he is a mixed bag for me. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised considering that a lot of occultists nowadays take "man is the measure of everything" a bit too far at times.Tetrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15248509191969138029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-58101382498713962552017-07-10T19:52:23.496+01:002017-07-10T19:52:23.496+01:00Excellent article. The eccentric British comics wr...Excellent article. The eccentric British comics writer, novelist and self-proclaimed magician Alan Moore worships Glycon, but it's intrinsic part of his occultism that the worshipper knows the object of worship to be a fake. He was inspired by the Crowley disciple who worshipped the fictional "gods" of H. P. Lovecraft, saying that true occult power is channeled through devotion to what one knows is a fictional construct.<br /><br />Hence Moore's version of Glycon is quite literally a sock puppet.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09844875473353725802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-49417215400872006562017-05-14T12:43:37.633+01:002017-05-14T12:43:37.633+01:00Some interesting comments here, but my opinion re ...Some interesting comments here, but my opinion re Lucian exaggerating and distorting Alexander's activities remains unnchanged - he made far too many claims that could not be confirmed, as described by me above. And I am certainly not convinced that Glycon was a rat snake - although lengthy, it has neither the bulk nor the imposing presence of a python, and would be too familiar a species to the audience to attract their attention and awe in the way that Glycon did.Dr Karl Shukerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06222845702628862829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-13487473881111236522017-05-14T11:15:42.546+01:002017-05-14T11:15:42.546+01:00I guess we'd need to ask ourselves something: ...I guess we'd need to ask ourselves something: can we call something a hoax if everyone is in on it? I doubt anyone thinks that they are physically drinking and eating Jesus. Unless we are to believe that bread and wine are Jesus' body and blood in general. That would have some very interesting theological implications. But let's not get into that because that's far beyond the scope of what Dr. Shuker is trying to accomplish here. This was for science and not theology.<br /><br />However, I still strongly propose the idea that the devotees of this deity would most likely not care if they knew that Glycon was a snake with a puppet on its head because it is not the snake itself that they worshipped but rather the snake as the embodiment of Asklepios (a role only possible through a sort of mask). Tetrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15248509191969138029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-74852788376438544382017-05-14T03:22:29.591+01:002017-05-14T03:22:29.591+01:00I am afraid that as a fan of Science Fiction (Luci...I am afraid that as a fan of Science Fiction (Lucian being the earliest known SF author), atheist rationalist and Epicurean I tend to side with Lucian.<br /><br />Lucian was trained as a rhetorician who would plead cases in court so was sort of a lawyer/barrister. He had studied philosophy and logic. He had travelled widely as a public speaker and entertainer. I would say that he knew how to get much of the information he claimed to have through investigation and informers. <br /><br />Before describing his alleged crimes Lucian wrote of Alexander "In person--not to forget that part of him--he was a fine handsome man with a real touch of divinity about him, white-skinned, moderately bearded; he wore besides his own hair artificial additions which matched it so cunningly that they were not generally detected. His eyes were piercing, and suggested inspiration, his voice at once sweet and sonorous. In fact there was no fault to be found with him in these respects. ... In understanding, resource, acuteness, he was far above other men; curiosity, receptiveness, memory, scientific ability--all these were his in overflowing measure."<br /><br />You can get an idea of how much Lucian loved truth and logic from his introduction to the ἀληθῶν διηγημάτων (A True/Real/Unconcealed Tale). He was happy to say he was a liar when he wrote fiction but his disdain for those who claimed to write truth but lied was also obvious. http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/true/index.htm<br /><br />To claim Lucian was embittered by Alexander being more successful than Lucian was is a stretch, Lucian was a rich and famous author who would have been happy with the recognition of the educated classes. He knew what benefits came from being freed of superstition and especially the fraud and trickery that was common among the "religious". He was famous and tried to use that fame to help the people be free of the chains of unreason. He was not the only one, the Celsus to whom he addressed the story of Alexander was apparently also a campaigner for the rational. "Moreover, in your excellent pamphlets against the magians (most useful and instructive reading they are) ..." Perhaps the same Celsus whose criticisms of Christianity are only known from Origen's refutation <i>Contra Celsum</i>?<br /><br />To acknowledge that Alexander was a fraud but claim that this lying, toadying, money-grubbing fake did not use his immense power, wealth and status in exactly the ways Lucian claimed is rather odd when we have no evidence that he was a paragon of philanthropy and good behaviour. We have plenty of cases in the twentieth century of religious frauds using their position for sex, financial skullduggery and even convincing people to commit murder.<br /><br />I would compare Lucian of Samosata to the Indian Rationalist movement, a group who hope to lessen the misery that superstition inflicts on modern Indian society. Sanal Edamaraku (one such campaigner) pointed out that the blood coming from the toe of a statue of Christ was actually sewage coming from a faulty drain and that it was probably a bad idea to drink it, however much you believed it to be Christ's blood. He is now living in Finland after receiving many threats to his life from so-called Christians who prefer faith to sanitary reality. This was the same man who, when a Pandit claimed to be able to mystically kill without touching the victim, challenged the Pandit to kill him on live TV. The Pandit failed, hilariously, over the course of many hours.Pattockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00741004991950391554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-22708446959404350852017-05-14T03:19:59.951+01:002017-05-14T03:19:59.951+01:00There is a large, docile, non-venomous, native sna...There is a large, docile, non-venomous, native snake found in Central Macedonia where Pella once was. <i>Elaphe quatuorlineata</i>, the four-lined rat-snake which often gets to 2 metres in length, though some sources say they will get to 8 feet or 2.4m. In modern Macedonia they are called Ždrepka (Ждрепка, apparently meaning a lot, as in drawing lots). Wikipedia has a reference to the website of Yerevan Zoo that is no longer on their website but states: "Their behaviour is generally calmer than that of other snakes (seldom hissing or striking)..." "Corn Snakes and Other Rat Snakes" by Bartlett & Bartlett (Barron's Educational Series, 2006) has "This big rat snake is relatively calm in captivity, but will bite when it feels threatened or eager to feed."<br /><br />There is no need for Alexander's Glycon to have the immense length of the exotic Egyptian python. Lucian says: "In a small room he took his seat, very imposingly attired, upon a couch. He took into his bosom our Asclepius of Pella (a very fine and large one, as I observed), wound its body round his neck, and let its tail hang down; there was enough of this not only to fill his lap, but to trail on the ground also; ..." http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/wl2/wl218.htm The true snake of Aesculapius or Asclepios is the closely-related, smaller <i>Zamenis longissimus</i>, which used to be in the same genus, when it was known as <i>Elaphe longissima</i>.<br /><br />Lucian seems to say the snakes are native to the area of Pella, not exotic breeds. Lucian says: "There is here a breed of large serpents, so tame and gentle that women make pets of them, children take them to bed, they will let you tread on them, have no objection to being squeezed, and will draw milk from the breast like infants. To these facts is probably to be referred the common story about Olympias when she was with child of Alexander; it was doubtless one of these that was her bed-fellow."<br /><br />While it is possible that Rock Pythons were imported from Egypt and bred, as the mosaic you refer to was made about 200 years before in Central Italy, it seems unlikely. Though Macedonia had once been Great under another Alexander it was now 4 centuries later. Lucian says of Alexander's patroness "She came from Pella, which had been a flourishing place under the Macedonian kingdom, but has now a poor and much reduced population." <br /><br />Finally I understand why Alan Moore, famous for comic books and contrarianism, says he is a devotee of Glycon. Glycon (Γλύκων) whose name in English is something like "Sweetie", clearly the name of a pet.Pattockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00741004991950391554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-55136377324297301172017-05-13T19:52:45.468+01:002017-05-13T19:52:45.468+01:00Andrew Bayless - "But in that moment where th...Andrew Bayless - "But in that moment where the worshippers are playing their part in the theatrics of the mysteries, it truly is the body and blood of Jesus Christ. No one calls that a hoax."<br /><br />I call that a hoax, but then I'm an atheist. But I agree, theatre is a part of eliciting religious experience, so we shouldn't be harsh on Alexander on that score.<br /><br />Excellent article, and a fitting tribute to Steve Moore!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05990564432778690216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3739684561063978507.post-55699697045650060552017-05-13T11:12:47.398+01:002017-05-13T11:12:47.398+01:00I know this isn't exactly a scientific perspec...I know this isn't exactly a scientific perspective, but as a Polytheist, it wouldn't matter to me if Glycon's human features were part of a costume. Theatrics have always been used to accentuate the wonder of the mysteries because really it's about the experience of the divine. Take the Christian Eucharist for example. Catholics say that it is literally the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Chemically, it's just bread and wine. But in that moment where the worshippers are playing their part in the theatrics of the mysteries, it truly is the body and blood of Jesus Christ. No one calls that a hoax. So why are we so quick to dismiss Glycon? Just food for thought. <br /><br />Aside from that, thanks for the excellent piece on this deity. Io Glycon! Tetrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15248509191969138029noreply@blogger.com